Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby dunhill » Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:15 pm

I know there is much room for error on Wikipedia, but this entry on Jill is interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Gibson
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby Ars_Nova_Chris » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:18 am

dunhill wrote:I'm listening to Barry McGuire's This Precious Time which got me to thinking. If Barry's lead vocal could be successfully scrubbed (well, almost) from his version of Califonia Dreamin' and replaced with the M's & P's, then I think it's quite possible that Jill's voice could have been scrubbed from the 2nd album. Just something to think about.


Not the same situation though, just listened to Barry's California Dreamin', and there's only four or five tracks on it from what I can tell (Barry's vocal on one track, backing vocal on another, with harmonica solo presumably on one of those tracks in the left channel, and rhythm section on one track and maybe one or two additional instrumental tracks on the right channel). With Barry's vocal on it's own track, erasing his part would have been no problem, all that would remain is a little bit of bleed-through onto other tracks.
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby Ars_Nova_Chris » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:14 pm

K, here's some sounds to check out...

First, Jill singing with Jan Berry on her song "It's As Easy As 1,2,3" (unfortunately I don't have the version with just Jill singing it)

http://www.imeem.com/people/wmwoWbG/mus ... sy-as-123/

Now, I'm gonna go with Richard in that it is most certainly Jill on "Look Through My Window"

http://www.imeem.com/people/wmwoWbG/mus ... my-window/

So if Michelle is indeed on "Dancing In the Street", "Once Was a Time I Thought" and "My Heart Stood Still" as many people over at the Steve Hoffman forums seem to think and which makes sense from the evidence available, Jill could still be correct in saying she's on ten songs, just that one of them is not on that album, but was recorded during that time.

Also, here's "That Kind of Girl"

http://www.imeem.com/people/wmwoWbG/mus ... y-monomp3/
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby Ars_Nova_Chris » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:41 pm

Got another e-mail from Jill in response to the vocal extractions that I sent her so far...

"Hi Chris,

I listened to the songs. Some are obvious, like Strange Young Girls... is me. I remember doing Trip, Stumble and Fall, I Saw Her Again Last Night, & Look Through My Window, and I can hear my voice on them. Once Was A Time I Thought is Michelle. Even If I Could is a hard one to hear because the male voices are so prominent and the female voices are so blended. I just remember at the time knowing I sang 10 of the 12 songs and Dancing In The Street was one I didn't sing. Probably the other one had to be Once There Was A Time. I did all the rest.

I hope this helps.

Jill"


Also was reading through Matthew Greenwald's book again and found this part interesting...

JILL GIBSON: Except for two songs on the album, "The Mamas & The Papas," I sang the entire second album. That would be 10 out of the 12 songs. I didn't sing "Dancing in the Street."
MICHELLE PHILLIPS: I had done vocals several of the songs prior to my getting fired, and then they went in and re-recorded her...so I think that's very possible. There's no way to know who sang on what, because we both sang on all the parts, and it was up to Bones and Lou and John what was on the final mix. And they had a lot to choose from! When you listen to the second album...listen to it...because I swear I don't have any idea who's singing on it. There are times when I don't know if I'm singing on it, or if Cass is, and we had very different, distinctive voices. I would love to know what they are, and I'm not disputing any of it. I would take anybody's word, because I really don't know..."



Oh, and I found Jill's solo version of "It's As Easy As 1, 2, 3" for comparison...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l19dna8M ... annel_page
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby Rbcsoup » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:56 am

I have not yet had the chance to listen to Chris' soundbytes. Thanks for posting them!

This is from my notes and those of Greg Russo. Also, at the end of the notes/commentary, I have included part of the group’s Sessionography from 1966 which should help with this mystery.

By the way, I was wrong about “Look Through My Window” as it was recorded in September 1966 after Michelle was back in the group. I appreciate your agreeing with me Chris, but maybe the fact that it sounds like Jill to us, makes Michelle's point that it's impossible to tell.

I also forgot that Henry Lewy, not Bones Howe, engineered the tracks with Michelle in August 1966.

This research is based on actual session sheets.

First and foremost: Michelle was fired on June 28, 1966 and reinstated on August 23, 1966. Once Jill joined the group, they went to London for a week. So her actual time with the group really was brief.

Dunhill released “I Saw Her Again” b/w “Even If I Could” in late June to hold things over.

The first studio session with Jill on board took place on July 5, at which the revised backing track of “No Salt On Her Tail” was recorded.

On July 8, John’s song “Gypsy” (which became “Dancing Bear”) was started.

On July 15, Jill replaced Michelle’s vocal on “Even If I Could.”

During the last week of July, “That Kind Of Girl,” “Did You Ever Want To Cry” and “Strange Young Girls” were committed to tape along with some orchestration on “Dancing Bear.”

John’s song “Did You Ever Want To Cry” was sung by Cass, but it would be shelved until the end of November for further work.

The Mamas & The Papas recorded their vocals to “Strange Young Girls,” “No Salt On Her Tail” and “I Can’t Wait” in early August after the keyboard, bass and drum tracks were redone on the last two songs.

Re-recording was also done on “Trip, Stumble And Fall” during that session, although the vocals were not touched.

Once Michelle was back in the group, in three separate three-hour sessions, Michelle had to re-record as many of Jill Gibson’s parts as she could, and the first one was “Dancing In The Street.”

The studio musicians and John, Cass and Denny re-recorded whatever parts were necessary to make everything sound homogenous. Henry Lewy engineered these recordings.

When Greg and I worked on this we concluded that Michelle was not on a third of the final album. Even though she and John had written “Trip, Stumble And Fall,” Jill Gibson’s vocal was on the final track because time to complete the LP had run out. The other tracks that did not feature Michelle were “I Can’t Wait,” “Dancing Bear” and the LP version of “Even If I Could.”


Trip, Stumble And Fall (04/25/66, 07/05/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/02/66 [bass, drums and keyboards replaced])
Even If I Could (04/25/66, 07/15/66 [with Jill Gibson])
Dancing In The Street (04/25/66, 08/23/66)
Words Of Love (04/26/66, 11/09/66 [orchestration by Marty Paich])
I Saw Her Again (04/26/66, 04/27/66)
Once Was A Time I Thought (04/28/66)
Here In My Arms (04/28/66)
No Salt On Her Tail (04/28/66, 08/23/66 [new backing track], 08/24/66)
I Can’t Wait (07/06/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/02/66 [bass, drums and keyboards replaced])
Dancing Bear (07/08/66 [with Jill Gibson], 07/27/66)
That Kind Of Girl (07/24/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/23/66 [new backing track with Michelle’s vocal])
Did You Ever Want To Cry (07/24/66 [with Jill Gibson], 07/26/66 [new backing track], 11/29/66 [new backing track])
Strange Young Girls (07/31/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/03/66 [new backing track], 08/23/66 [Michelle’s vocal])
My Heart Stood Still (08/23/66, 08/24/66)
Look Through My Window (09/24/66; 09/28/66 [orchestration by Marty Paich])
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby Ars_Nova_Chris » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:18 am

Rbcsoup wrote:I have not yet had the chance to listen to Chris' soundbytes. Thanks for posting them!

This is from my notes and those of Greg Russo. Also, at the end of the notes/commentary, I have included part of the group’s Sessionography from 1966 which should help with this mystery.

By the way, I was wrong about “Look Through My Window” as it was recorded in September 1966 after Michelle was back in the group. I appreciate your agreeing with me Chris, but maybe the fact that it sounds like Jill to us, makes Michelle's point that it's impossible to tell.

*Yeah, that's weird, it really sounds like Jill's voice on there...*

I also forgot that Henry Lewy, not Bones Howe, engineered the tracks with Michelle in August 1966.

This research is based on actual session sheets.

First and foremost: Michelle was fired on June 28, 1966 and reinstated on August 23, 1966. Once Jill joined the group, they went to London for a week. So her actual time with the group really was brief.

Dunhill released “I Saw Her Again” b/w “Even If I Could” in late June to hold things over.

The first studio session with Jill on board took place on July 5, at which the revised backing track of “No Salt On Her Tail” was recorded.

On July 8, John’s song “Gypsy” (which became “Dancing Bear”) was started.

On July 15, Jill replaced Michelle’s vocal on “Even If I Could.”

During the last week of July, “That Kind Of Girl,” “Did You Ever Want To Cry” and “Strange Young Girls” were committed to tape along with some orchestration on “Dancing Bear.”

John’s song “Did You Ever Want To Cry” was sung by Cass, but it would be shelved until the end of November for further work.

*I see no mention of re-recording the vocals on this... would that mean that Jill is on "Did You Ever Want to Cry"?*

The Mamas & The Papas recorded their vocals to “Strange Young Girls,” “No Salt On Her Tail” and “I Can’t Wait” in early August after the keyboard, bass and drum tracks were redone on the last two songs.

Re-recording was also done on “Trip, Stumble And Fall” during that session, although the vocals were not touched.

Once Michelle was back in the group, in three separate three-hour sessions, Michelle had to re-record as many of Jill Gibson’s parts as she could, and the first one was “Dancing In The Street.”

*Re-record "Dancing In the Street"? Jill never sang on it in the first place, did she?*

The studio musicians and John, Cass and Denny re-recorded whatever parts were necessary to make everything sound homogenous. Henry Lewy engineered these recordings.

When Greg and I worked on this we concluded that Michelle was not on a third of the final album. Even though she and John had written “Trip, Stumble And Fall,” Jill Gibson’s vocal was on the final track because time to complete the LP had run out. The other tracks that did not feature Michelle were “I Can’t Wait,” “Dancing Bear” and the LP version of “Even If I Could.”

*I'm confused about some of the session stuff listed below. The backing tracks and the vocals were recorded on "Words of Love" on the same day? Do you have all of the session sheets for this time? Guess it would be less confusing to see the actual sheets. Oh, and what ever happened to Greg Russo and his book he was working on? *

Trip, Stumble And Fall (04/25/66, 07/05/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/02/66 [bass, drums and keyboards replaced])
Even If I Could (04/25/66, 07/15/66 [with Jill Gibson])
Dancing In The Street (04/25/66, 08/23/66)
Words Of Love (04/26/66, 11/09/66 [orchestration by Marty Paich])
I Saw Her Again (04/26/66, 04/27/66)
Once Was A Time I Thought (04/28/66)
Here In My Arms (04/28/66)
No Salt On Her Tail (04/28/66, 08/23/66 [new backing track], 08/24/66)
I Can’t Wait (07/06/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/02/66 [bass, drums and keyboards replaced])
Dancing Bear (07/08/66 [with Jill Gibson], 07/27/66)
That Kind Of Girl (07/24/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/23/66 [new backing track with Michelle’s vocal])
Did You Ever Want To Cry (07/24/66 [with Jill Gibson], 07/26/66 [new backing track], 11/29/66 [new backing track])
Strange Young Girls (07/31/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/03/66 [new backing track], 08/23/66 [Michelle’s vocal])
My Heart Stood Still (08/23/66, 08/24/66)
Look Through My Window (09/24/66; 09/28/66 [orchestration by Marty Paich])


*Thank you for taking the time to look this stuff up, Richard, it's very much appreciated! :D *
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby ignasi » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:11 pm

Hello Richard!!
Great work!!
What happened with the book Greg Russo was working on??
Thank you.
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby Ars_Nova_Chris » Wed May 20, 2009 12:43 am

Recently sent Jill a copy of Richard's last post, just got a response back from her:

"Hi Chris,

I am interested but am not good at the computer and posting things. You can post this for me if you want.

So, I read the info you sent. It's pretty confusing. Several things pop out.

1. If you listen to "Strange Young Girls" from 1:08 to 1:00, where the words are "visions astound them, demanding their share", I can hear my voice. It's low, textural, and nasal.

2. In terms of the time I spend in the group, I have the termination contract here in my hand and it's dated December 20, 1966. There was no lengthy negotiation. I was handed the contract and I signed it. That would make a discrepancy of about 4 months.

3. If you think about it, I spent a few weeks in England rehearsing, did a lot of recording in LA, and did 5 or so concerts. That took awhile. I don't know if anyone has those concert dates. That might tell you something.

Thanks for keeping me informed.

Jill"
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby dunhill » Wed May 20, 2009 11:46 am

I tend to just enjoy the music as is. I am much more drawn to Jill's talent as a fine portrait artist and sculptor than her musical talents anyway.
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Re: Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

Postby Sandy » Sun May 24, 2009 8:40 am

I think Jill is a very sweet person who would never speak what she doesn't believe, but her memories do not jive with actual history. For instance, why would Michelle be on the cover of the second album? It had been in release over three months by the time December 20, 1966 rolled around. Also, why did Mama Michelle perform at Carnegie Hall on November 11, 1966 and at SMU in Dallas on November 12th?

As for "Strange Young Girls", the line "visions astound them, demanding their share", that's Cass singing, or I'll eat my turntable.

I have in the past shared with Jill the fact I saw her in concert with the Ms&Ps on July 1, 1966. That was 27 days after Michelle was ousted. The original scheduled date for that Dallas concert was June 18th. The sponsoring radio station explained the concert had to be rescheduled due to John Phillips being ill. John was in fact in London rehearsing Jill for the summer concerts that were already under contract. It is pretty simple to figure out all five concerts in which Jill performed were staged between the last few days of June 1966 and August 1, 1966.

Aside: I learned years later by talking to some folks who were familar with the booking process for that Dallas concert that the Mamas & the Papas were paid $10,000 to appear. That's hilarious by today's standards. Of course, when adjusted for inflation, that's about $66,000 in 2009 buying power. It's still funny when compared to today's Power Acts who won't get out of bed for less than a million or two.
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